Hooking Up Smart reaches new low (TW for controlling behavior)

In the comments of the wonderfully named Marcotte's Boxers Are In A Twist Over Nice Guys (TM), commenter Deti discusses what he does after he discovered that his wife lied to him and said she had ten sex partners when she'd really had 21:

I’ve had to make changes. I’ve been much more dominant at home. We have sex much more frequently and I initiate it more frequently. I read her cell phone numbers, the numbers she calls, and I read her texts. So as to guard against deleting texts or calls, I review the cell phone bill and landline phone bill with fine toothed combs and ask about numbers I don’t recognize. I monitor the bank accounts very closely. We share an email account and I read all the email. Anything out of the ordinary gets very pointed questions from me. I ask a lot more questions about what’s going on. I come home from work unannounced in the middle of the day. I have made it clear in no uncertain terms that if Mrs. deti ever cheats on me, or if I discover that she ever has cheated on me in the past, that will end the marriage with no second chances (of course, she’s told me the same thing. Fair is fair, after all).

Hel-lo, controll-y dude. Lying about your sexual history is shitty; controlling your partner's life because you fear she'll cheat on you is classic abuser behavior. Note that none of the other commenters call him out on it and Susan Walsh in fact praises him for doing "the right thing" and showing how dominant and alpha he is.

That is an abusive relationship.

Oh gross. If I was his wife I would divorce him for that kind of creepy controlling behavior. What the hell? It's not even like she had been cheating on him or lying to him in the relationship, not that that would have made that kind of behavior all right, but he goes all controlling because she had more partners than she originally said? That's ridiculous. It almost seems like he was just looking for a reason, any reason, to behave this way. I know a lot of abusers will look for some kind of excuse to get angry because they want to have that feeling. I kind of get that impression from this guy that he was just waiting for even the flimsiest excuse so that he could act like an asshole and feel justified. And it's just disgusting that these people are egging him on.

Holy FUCK divorce that guy. Any amount of "I don't trust you" is theoretically grounds for a breakup; that's grounds for a breakup for the entirely different reason that he's clearly an abusive asshole in addition to being not nearly trusting enough of his wife to be in a committed relationship with her.

Here is a novel concept, if you do not trust the person you are with, do not remain in a committed relationship with that person.

Though, with this guy, the lack of trust is just an excuse for the control. And he knows he is not a high value catch for someone so he has to degrade the woman he is with to make her feel as if she is unworthy for anything better.

Disgusting.

That's fucking horrifying and it's making me fucking angry to the point where I'm not even putting my fucks in the right fucking fuck places fuck.

(Wow, now I know what it's like to be MRAL.)

I guess there are people out there who won't see anything but hitting (and only certain instances of that) as abuse. Taking away someone's right to live like a human being? Taking away their right to ever be alone, to have even the most innocent secrets, to feel safe anywhere ever? NOT ABUSE HE DIDN'T HIT HER.

FUCK.

That fucking fuckwad is calling his own wife a hamster brain. And these people supporting him! My god. Those people actually exist out there in the world somewhere!

And I just have to comment on these 2 quotes

From the NYPost article being discussed:

"Women in less egalitarian countries do tend to restrict sex as a means of keeping the cost high. This makes sense when women have no access to education and employment. But in the US, it would take a major cultural movement for women to convince each other to say no to nookie."

Riiiight. Because you know how much control women in anti-egalitarian societies have over their own sexuality and reproduction! They don't even let 'em drive, but damned if they don't have a corner on the sex market!

And this from Susan "I hate myself and all other women" Walsh herself:

"Growing up in the era of feminism, many women have been taught that sex is empowering, a dangerous and unhealthy notion."

Indeed, Susan. We'd all certainly be better off if we returned to the former notion that sex is a repulsive, base thing that must be controlled by governments, religion, and men. We all know how beautifully for that worked out for everyone in the Dark Ages.

Okay, #1: Not trusting someone because of their number of sexual partners. Srsly? Yes, it was wrong that she lied. But given this dude's reaction, I kinda understand why she was afraid to disclose her number.

#2: Even if we forget #1, there is nothing that makes Mr. Deti's behavior acceptable. Nothing. DTMFA.

Wow. Walsh even brings back her "fun" (messy, stupid) chart demonstrating sexual hypergamy. The praise of abuse puts a lot of what she says in perspective. Not that her nonsense about Marcotte hating beta males is at all intelligent or honest, but her willingness to praise abusers says a lot about how she judges the world and explains her other dishonesty and horristupid opinions.

You know, having recently been in a relationship like this, it's probably one of the worst soul killers imaginable and it actually will eventually make a person crazy. The feeling of those alarm bells going off and then being told "you're just imagining it," or "no, this is the way things are supposed to be," just fucks with a person's head so much.

Fucking hell, that's just totally and utterly inexcusable--Deti's behaviour, that is. He sounds like a horrible person.

You know, the "it was wrong for her to have lied" thing is such a red herring, especially considering the whole point of Marcotte's piece was how women are shamed for having a number over 10. So why wouldn't you lie and say the number is under 10 if this is the reaction you'll get? With this kind of behavior I'm actually hoping for her to cheat because a quick "this is the end forever" divorce sounds like a GREAT outcome for her! Or really anything that results cutting this fuckface out of her life forever. I hope she stays safe.

It terrifies me sometimes that there are so many people out there who just don't get that this is abuse. It becomes 'jealousy' or 'an unreasonable but understandable reaction to betrayal' (or, more often, 'a reasonable reaction to betrayal') and just swept under the rug.

The guy was blatantly looking for an excuse to start abusing her, and all he had to do to get away with it is pick the right one.

LokiDay wrote:It terrifies me sometimes that there are so many people out there who just don't get that this is abuse. It becomes 'jealousy' or 'an unreasonable but understandable reaction to betrayal' (or, more often, 'a reasonable reaction to betrayal') and just swept under the rug.

The guy was blatantly looking for an excuse to start abusing her, and all he had to do to get away with it is pick the right one.

Pretty much. It's classic abuser behavior to find a way to justify something so horribly wrong, because if they admit that it's abuse, they also have to admit that they're assholes for doing it. "You did X and I was forced to do Y," is textbook rationalization and it's heard in every abusers rehabilitation program and anger management class. Those who nod along in agreement are likely abusers themselves, or have been abused and subjected to these excuses so many times that they've started to believe it.

I also have a feeling that this is just one of the many ways this woman is abused. He was looking for a reason to start *this particular form* of abuse.

I have taken a quick look at Hooking Up Smart, but I can't figure out what is going on there. Can anyone explain what Susan Walsh's motivation is? Usually, in my experience, when a woman spends that much time attacking feminism, it's because Jesus told her to. Susan Walsh isn't a right wing Christian fundamentalist as far as I know so why does she spend her life attacking feminism?

...Ornova, you realize that there's more than one female MRA?

The reason Walsh is Walsh is that women aren't immune to being sexist. That's it.

I realize that there's more than one female MRA and more than one type of female MRA. That's why I want to understand her motivation for being a MRA. Telling me she's sexist doesn't tell me what her motivation for being sexist is.

I assume her motivation to be sexist is that she's grown up in a culture where women are frequently treated as goods and women who have unapproved sex as damaged goods, and she either hasn't been able to or hasn't wanted to question any of that. You can find a lot of female columnists in mainstream publications saying only slightly weaker versions of what Walsh does.

You seem to think there's something special about female sexists. There really isn't. Whatever the motivation of a male sexist in Walsh's position would be, that is her motivation.

It's not even like male sexists aren't hurting themselves. A man who slut-shamed women in the way Walsh does would be hurting his own chances of having sex in addition to being a dick. But there are tons of men who do that anyway.

Susan Walsh is a sick fuck and so is this abusive piece of shit. I hope his wife...who is more like property in this "relationship" divorces him.

Thanks again internet for reinforcing my choices to not date and definitely never marry. Almost 1000 comments on that shitty site proves it.

And wtf? Walsh herself proves that her and MRA/PUA therories about how all women want alphas is bullshit in her own comment!

@Anonymous
I’m a 54 year old mother of a son and daughter. My husband of 27 years is a self-acknowledged beta male. We have a good life, a fine marriage. Our family is close knit. I started blogging to meet the needs of my then 19 y o daughter and her friends, who were dismayed to find that the boys who paid them attention expected sexual favors in return. Through blogging and attracting readers of both sexes, I’ve learned a great deal about the male experience as well. It sounds corny and trite, but I want people to find a way to love one another. It’s been an interesting journey, and is its own reward.

She's happy married to a beta but the rest of us are whores for alphas. Yeah...that really makes sense. Exactly what is stopping the rest of us from also having happy relationships with betas? I also love the "I blog to help my teen daughter and her friends by basically saying they're all sluts!" too -_-

She just thinks she's the last good monogamous woman who married someone with the same number as her, while everyone else is going for the ones and twos. Remember that chart with the smiley face clip art all over it?

Holy fucking fuck. I know everyone else has covered the "abuser" territory, but, JESUS. This sounds terrifying and awful, and will make it extremely difficult to leave. That poor woman.

BlackHumor wrote:
It's not even like male sexists aren't hurting themselves. A man who slut-shamed women in the way Walsh does would be hurting his own chances of having sex in addition to being a dick. But there are tons of men who do that anyway.

If you're already having little or no sex, reducing your chances means basically nothing (while simultaneously hurting a bunch of other men you didn't like to begin with), so it's basically a win-win.

Uh... if you're having little or no sex and you slut-shame people, you are reducing your chance of getting laid regularly in the future, which is bad. I've fucked quite a few virgins and people who got their first kiss in their twenties, but none of them slut-shamed people.

Besides that, why are you assuming that men who slut-shame have little to no sex?

The whole POINT of that statement was that women aren't necessarily non-sexist just by being women. That means that there are misogynists who can get (straight) sex regularly, because their misogyny does not bother the women they have sex with. It's not weird, or bad, or at least not any more bad than misogyny itself being bad which is quite a lot so forget I said anything?

I just think people like Walsh are trying to elevate their status by saying "I'm not like those people, I'm good and pure!" You know, how some women say "Oh, I hate other women, they're all so catty and mean, I'd rather hang out with the guys"--it's like that. Or, perhaps, like certain anti-porn crusaders with their femme-bashing and calling other women some rather disgustingly misogynist things. Transsexual separatists, straight-acting LGs, you name it, someone has done a similar thing.

The "I'm normal, unlike those freaks" thing is a tactic used by people who want to elevate themselves but still suffer from internalised bigotry.

Susan Walsh said that when she was in college/universty in the mid-70s, she had sex in a stairwell in an academic building, on the top floor of the parking garage, on the floor of the art museum, the top floor of the library in the stacks. And now she's telling women half her age to not do the same thing she did and at the same time she tease and flirt with guys from the manosphere. She's jealous of younger women and there's a lot of women like her in the manosphere. And I'm sure she must not have an happy marriage - she's just too hateful of other women.


Man who slut-shame are constantly saying that women want Alphas (other guys than them) so I doubt they have a lot of success even with misogynistic women.

Nah, NMMNG. There are LOTS of slut-shamey dudes on the planet, and not all of them are in the MRM. You still have the stereotypical bros, whose desire to sleep with women is only surpassed by their desire to make fun of them for doing so.

There could be something to be said if someone had X experience and wanted to help a person not have X experience if it was a bad one.

"I had sex in all of these places but I wound up in jail on charges of public indecency. When considering doing similar actions, please take into account my experience. I would not wish the same on you" is a very different thing then "I got mine and you better not you slut!"

Dorktv wrote:There could be something to be said if someone had X experience and wanted to help a person not have X experience if it was a bad one.

"I had sex in all of these places but I wound up in jail on charges of public indecency. When considering doing similar actions, please take into account my experience. I would not wish the same on you" is a very different thing then "I got mine and you better not you slut!"

She didn't say she had problems and she's seems to be happy about it. She just doesn't want younger people to be like her in her youth. She's like these baby-boomers who support the war on drugs while joking about their own drug consumption in the 1970s.