Game without Hate

So MRAL has been asking on the blog what advice we would give to an ordinary young men having "trouble" with women. Many people have pointed out that it's difficult to give advice to a hypothetical person when we have no idea what their specific problem is, and I'd add that it's difficult to advise when you don't know what someone wants. Nevertheless, I do understand the appeal of concepts like "game," and while I never went in for any of the PUA stuff, I did develop by conscious reflection a set of habits designed to fulfill basically the same function. But before I get to the advice, some disclaimers:

1: I am a 21yo mostly white mostly straight cis male student of average height with no serious disabilities or deformities.
2: I'm pretty sure my approach is hate-free, but I'm not confident it's 100% prejudice, stereotype and objectification free. I hope so but I don't know.
3: My game may not suit everyone's personality. I believe it would work for anyone who implemented it, but it's not the only way for a hetero cisman to conduct himself. If it feels wrong to you figure out something else.
4: It's not necessary to use every tip, you can mix and match.
5 (and this is important): This is not a guide to casual sex or bar pickups. I am confident that this guide will help you find some casual sex opportunities but I am not a casual sex expert and if that is your only desire there is probably a more focused strategy available.
6: Because we don't know specifically what the generic hypothetical guy wants, this guide aims to maximize time spent enjoying the compay of women with whome you share a mutual attraction. Whether you're shopping for a spouse or looking for a hookup, this could be a stepping stone, as well as being rewarding in itself.

It's late so I'm going to wander from topic to topic basically at random. Have fun with that. More tips will be added as they occur to me.

CONVERSATION PIECES

When you're looking to connect with someone it helps to have something to talk about. Actually, what really helps is to have something you're happy to hear THEM talk about. Women are all different and of course some women are interested in everything it's possible to be interested in, but there are statistical trends. Recognize that if your only interests are some combination of math, engineering, video games, sci-fi/fantasy books, and thrash metal then it will be more difficult for you to find that women you connect with. This goes double if you're only into the particularly "dudely" sides of your fields. You basically have two choices. One is to seek out the subculture devoted to your interests, and then find the communities within that culture that are friendly to women. The other is to cultivate some interests that let you relate to more people. Consider looking into corners of your field more women you know are involved in, or branching out into a related field with more women in it. (If you're a mathematician, read some linguistics; if you're a statistician, read some sociology.) You don't have to be knowledgeable enough to give a lecture, just enough to enjoy hearing one.

COMPLIMENTS

Many people seem to believe that compliments should always be spontaneous. This is not true. What compliments should be is sincere. It is perfectly acceptable to decide to give someone a compliment, then study them to figure out what compliment you can give. As long as you genuinely like whatever feature you end up praising, it's all good.

Give compliments frequently. This will make people happy to have you around, and it can signal to a woman that you might be attracted to her. You can often learn a lot about how she views you by watching how she reacts. However, compliments are good even for women you aren't attracted to, since women talk to each other and making a good impression with one person will give you inroads to other social circles. Heck, give a few compliments to men too, it helps you make friends and seem less predatory.

It's important to remember that physical compliments can be intrusive and threatening. It's safer to praise a woman's clothing or fashion, or her ideas and behavior. Once you have a little familiarity, you can compliment a clothing item associated with a body part you are admiring. The best compliments cross categories. If you notice something she's wearing that ties into something interesting about her life, that's ideal.

RATING SYSTEMS

Don't waste your time rating women on a scale from 1 to 10. Strength of attraction is not a good predictor of happiness, and your appraisal of looks is too heavily influenced by mood and context anyway. Among the women you find attractive, choose whom to pursue based on who is most available and interested in interacting with you, not who you think is 10% hotter than the others.

On a related note, try to see the beauty in everyone. If you spend time trying to see what's attractive about women of your acquaintances, eventually it will become a habit. If I used some kind of stupid rating system i'd probably say you can add +2 to anyone just by learning how to look at them.

GROUP AWARENESS

Pay attention to outsiders entering your social circle. This can mean guests who just arrived to an ongoing party, friends of a friend of yours who don't know many people in the room, or even just the latest person to join a circle of strangers sitting on some chairs. When a new woman joins your group, see if she's included in the ongoing conversation. The the group is continuing to do their thing oblivious to her presence, move to a seat near her and introduce yourself. This is a perfect chance to make a positive impression, build affection through one-on-one time, and help someone out as well. (Note: Doing this for new men is also a nice thing to do, although less likely to get you laid)

In a large group of people, multiple conversations and cross-talk are inevitable. When several conversations are happening at once, women's voices have a tendency to get talked over. If you see a woman trying and failing to say something to the group, move near her and say "You know, I was really interested to hear what you had to say." Then listen to what she has to say. This is another easy chance for one-on-one interaction.

In general, take any nonthreatening opportunity to create a one--on-one moment with a woman. Answering the door at a party, offering to help carry something bulky, and volunteering help in the kitchen are all great ways to start a conversation away from the main group.

TOUCH

Touch tends to cement connections and strengthen affection. Having a benign and inoffensive reason to touch women really helps. I recommend taking up some form of social dance. Not only can you go actual dance events, but it's surprisingly common that someone will mention desire to learn a dance, in which case you can offer an impromptu lesson. Taking up massage can also work.

This goes double if you're only into the particularly "dudely" sides of your fields. You basically have two choices. One is to seek out the subculture devoted to your interests, and then find the communities within that culture that are friendly to women. The other is to cultivate some interests that let you relate to more people. Consider looking into corners of your field more women you know are involved in, or branching out into a related field with more women in it. (If you're a mathematician, read some linguistics; if you're a statistician, read some sociology.)

This is an extremely good piece of advice if you're in a subculture that is generally not attractive to women. There's often stuff that is, at least IME.

In general, take any nonthreatening opportunity to create a one--on-one moment with a woman. Answering the door at a party, offering to help carry something bulky, and volunteering help in the kitchen are all great ways to start a conversation away from the main group.

This is an extremely bad piece of advice in conjunction with a subculture that is not good at attracting women. Almost every woman in these cultures is new to them, or amazingly tired of this kind of bullshit. You're better off just becoming friends with everyone. And I do mean friends; if a romantic relationship is capable of growing out of that friendship, it may, but you absolutely can not and should not expect it.

Let's see, advice for hetero guys (a lot of this applies to other relationships, but I'm going to write assuming the person addressed is a guy seeking to date women)...

RESPECT DISINTEREST

Do not start treating a woman as if she is worthless if she rejects your romantic advances.

Respect rejections as the right of anyone you are trying to date. It is hard to get turned down, and asking people out can be nerve wracking, but no one is entitled to a yes answer when asking for a date. Take the no gracefully and be polite. Not only is the the nice way to treat people, this will give you a good reputation and make others in the social circle more likely to like you. .

Look for a yes rather than the absence of a no. You want everyone to have fun and enjoy themselves. It is better to put something off or not go out than to pressure or manipulate someone into something they do not really want.

DON'T ONLY BE NICE TO HOT WOMEN

Don't only be nice to the hot people/people you want to date. You don't need to date or pretend at romantic interest where there is none, in fact, that's a bad idea. But try to turn down polite offers politely. It's okay to have tastes, but not okay to expect all women to meet them. Women are people, that includes those who you are not interested in sexually. Treat women who are not romantic interests or who are unattractive as valuable for other contributions to the group.

Avoid putting down people based on their appearance. Trust me, if you are the "no fat chicks" guy that goes on ad infinitum, it doesn't only turn off the fat girls. Instead, if a fat girl expresses interest and you aren't attracted to fat women, say instead "I am flattered, but I am not interested, sorry." If someone isn't your "type", it is better to say "you aren't my type, so thanks but no thanks" than to get into unecessary specifics of what you find wrong with them or their body.

DATE/SEEK SEX BECAUSE YOU WANT TO

Sometimes, I think some of these guys see sex and dating as more of an accomplishment for social approval rather than something they actually want for itself. It is okay to be a virgin. It is okay to be celibate. Sex and dating should happen because it is something you want and are ready for, not because you feel like you have to in order to be a proper man. You don't have to want sex or relationships at any given time. This should be about what you want in your life, not about impressing your friends/peers.

What sort of relationship do you want? Casual sex? Long term dating? Something that will lead to marriage and kids? Monogamous or poly? Be honest with yourself and your partner. It is okay to only want casual sex at the moment, but it is not okay to toy with someone who you know has much deeper feelings. These restrictions will affect who will date you, to varying degrees. But a "no" from someone who wants completely different things is better than ending up with the trouble that comes from distortions. You can also consider the location. If you are in a club on a saturday night, hook ups and short terms are more likely to be on most people's lists than if you are looking for a date at church, for example.

I endorse all of DSC's advice.

SET MICRO GOALS

Before a social occasion, take a few minutes to decide what your reason for going is. For example, hanging out only with your close friends won't usually lead to finding a date, but throwing yourself in front of new people constantly can be exhausting. It helps to rotate goals. This party is for meeting people, ext party is for catching up with friends, this one if for dancing, next one is for talking philosophy, whatever. On top of that, pick one or two game concepts like "sincere compliments" to work on at each event.

GIVE BREATHERS

Often at a social gathering you may find yourself having a long and fascinating conversation with a woman you've recently met. You may feel that you are forging a strong friendship or even a romantic connection. This might be true, but unfortunately it's difficult to tell because as long as you meet a minimal level of decency it can be difficult for a woman to end a conversation or disengage from you. If you find that you've been talking to the same woman at a party for 45 minutes, excuse yourself and go get a drink, say hi to your other friends, and mingle for a little while.

The idea here is to give the woman you've been talking to enough time to start a different conversation, rejoin her friends, or hop into a different social circle. What she does when you come back to check on her will tell you a lot about how you've been coming across. If she likes you as much as you like her, she'll either try to rope you into her ongoing conversation or leave her group to focus on you. If she doesn't acknowledge your return, consider her a friendly acquaintance and find someone else to chat up.

FIND YOURSELF INTERESTING

Being good at talking about yourself is less important than being a good listener, but it definitely helps. A lot of people are convinced that their jobs and daily lives are boring, because they're used to them. Others have trouble figuring out what would be interesting to outsiders. Whenever something major happens--you start a new job, go to a concert or a conference, etc., ask yourself "what happened here that would be amusing to someone else?" Anticipate questions you are likely to get (where do you work, what do you study, what are your hobbies) and plan out some funny and SHORT answers. If possible, craft your story so that it leaves some loose ends which flow into other anecdotes.

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Rutee, thank you for your input. I especially appreciate the input on overhelpfulness in male-dominated subcultures. I do a lot of gaming but I don't really spend my time in gamer spaces, I go to general-interest college parties with a healthy gender mix. There I find that women are quite likely to be doing all the work and genuinely grateful for a hand. Do you think I could revise that tip to be more helpful, or should I abandon it? (Also, what does "There's often stuff that is, at least IME." mean?)

Don't treat women as targets in some game... treat us as people :) We're actually savvier than ppl think when it comes to figuring out what men are trying to do when approaching us, the more it's obv that you're trying to manipulate us (either with tons of compliments or negging or nething else) the more likely we'll be judging you right off the bat.

Don't pedestalize women... Figleaf wrote a great piece on NSWATM about this

http://noseriouslywhatabouttehmenz.wordpress.com/2011/08/01/1198/

Basically, if you keep telling a woman how you don't deserve her, and put yourself down and raise her up, the less attractive you come off as, and the more insecure you also come off as.

The opposite isn't true either (i.e. negging). It's not about some black and white either/or false choice xD It's about treating her like a peer, which means confidence, and that you both are on the same level :) (and also if your relationship has to be a constant power struggle, or one person has to keep putting down the self esteem of another person, then that's a rly bad and unhealthy dynamic and the two people prolly are not right for each other in the first place)

But yeah, if she's into comics, and you're into comics, talk to her about comics. Ask her what she likes, and what she thinks about things going on in the books or the industry. That's treating her like a peer. Don't gush, and don't condescend/insult. Just talk :)


Sometimes it's the Kobiyashi Maru.

Sometimes you just CAN'T WIN. xD And that's OKAY. Nobody can mind read another person. And a person not being interested in you doesn't mean that you've failed, or that you SHOULD have done something different, or that if you were taller or shorter, or more charming, or made more money or nething, it'd have worked. Maybe the other person is just not interested in dating, or interested in certain relationships, or maybe they've had a bad day, or they're grumpy, or you just don't get along.

Women approach men too.

Ppl think that women don't so much they don't even notice when we do, often. So be friendly if women are friendly to you.

Which leads also into:

Be nice to people. That's a biggie. A guy who is mean to waiters, or mean to other women, or mean to other men, etc, comes off poorly on a date, because it shows that you might NOT be a nice person, you're only nice to us because you want in our pants, and that's insincere. Following DSC's above advice helps in that. If you're normally nice to everybody, you won't have to worry about faking it, or remembering to be nice to people no a date :)

The idea here is to give the woman you've been talking to enough time to start a different conversation, rejoin her friends, or hop into a different social circle. What she does when you come back to check on her will tell you a lot about how you've been coming across. If she likes you as much as you like her, she'll either try to rope you into her ongoing conversation or leave her group to focus on you. If she doesn't acknowledge your return, consider her a friendly acquaintance and find someone else to chat up.

That's RLY good advice. First off, b/c it goes into what I said above, that we ALSO talk to men and like men, and if we like you we'll try to include you in our convos. Secondly, too much dating advice seems to be on this idea that if you let a woman go w/o "securing" her, she'll just leave.. which also plays into a ton of insecurities -_- If we like you, we'll be back... I mean ultimately that's what's important, to remember that women like men too, and this is about finding a woman who likes you ALSO

I find that often insecurity and mistrust ends up manifesting itself in how one behaves no matter how hard we try to hide it... like not wanting to let somebody rejoin their friends, or being worried that if you're not constantly talking to them some other person will scoop them up... (and of course in relationships it can end up leading to problematic behaviour :\ )

Oh and don't put down other women

I don't mean specific women. It's not like you can't talk about a co-worker who was mean to you, or if she's complaining about somebody you can't sympathize if it's a woman xD I mean in the general. For example, if she's a geek unless you're TALKING about how you dislike jock culture don't say "I love geek girls they're not stuck up bitches like XYZ women" or "I like a woman who respects herself, not like those fat chicks" (I have gotten both of those) or "I like a woman with some meat on her not like those anorexic bitches" -_-

I know that it seems like it'll be great, b/c the assumption is all women are jealous, catty and insecure, and we want to be told you like us for our "flaws" better than THOSE women, but often when unprompted it comes off as petty and superficial and also that you've JUST pointed out various ways society stereotypes women, including ourselves. Basically, don't compliment her by tearing another woman down. :)

KEEP THREE IRONS IN THE FIRE

If you are the type of person who has one intense crush at a time, you have to be very careful not to come off as obsessive. You'll be tempted to show up in that person's life a lot more than they might want you to even if they think well of you.

If you've been practicing seeing people in their most attractive light, then you should know about three or four women at any one time who you could see yourself dating. That's good because even if you tried to contact one of them every day, you'd only be messaging a particular woman a much more acceptable 2/week.

I'll just leave this here.

And then stop thinking of them as bitches

Ami's advice is good. I think her points about knowing when to quit (pursuing a particular woman) is especially important. I myself mess up that one a lot. About once a year I seem to come off as creepily obsessive to some poor woman. Normally I would re-write new points in my own format, but I don't actually know the answer here.

BOOBS

You have at most 1.5 seconds to look at them.

This one is for MRAL!!! XD

PAY ATTENTION TO YOUR BODY LANGUAGE

Try to project confidence with your body language. This could mean different things, depending on your level of ability and your personal style. For example, you might focus on things like keeping your back straight; walking with a firm, steady gait; keeping your chin up; and making lots of eye contact. Hunching forward or folding your arms can make you look withdrawn or ill-at-ease.

Body language that conveys nervousness or discomfort can be unattractive; and it can also register as disinterest. My partner spent our entire first date thinking I didn't like her, because my body language was screaming "OMG I'm so nervous I just wanna die." >.>

Don't 'kino' anyone. I don't know any woman who likes a random guy touching her when they haven't even had a proper conversation.

Don't hit on really drunk women. Especially don't approach them for sex, even if they seem up for it. Apart from all those consent issues we endlessly discuss, drunk sex fucking sucks for both parties, especially if they don't know each other. *N.B. A couple of beers is not 'really drunk', use your judgement wisely*

Don't overthink and try and push things. Being friends and having a laugh with someone you think is hot is perfectly fun on its own. If you try not to let someone 'get away' they will usually...get away.

Ami's point about being nice and respectful to other people (unless you have a good reason not to be) is the most important to me.

Smile genuinely, make eye contact and observe what the other person is doing and how they react to you. If they step back from you, put a little more distance between you, don't close in. DON'T get up in someone's face so you are breathing on them. DON'T block anyone's exit with your body.

Don't 'neg'. The reason this idea is popular is that for some girls it is annoying to be endlessly complimented on looks etc., as this can seem really false and not what you wanna be judged on anyway. I'd probably disagree with Orion and say keep compliments to a minimum, at least to start with. This doesn't mean insulting people or giving them backhanded compliments, that just makes you look like a dick!

BE A POSITIVE PERSON. Don't endlessly complain. Smile. Talk about things you love, not things you hate. Show an interest in the other person's interests (or fake it a lil ).

@Magical Laura exactly... as me and Figleaf were saying in his post... the problem is that ppl (of any gender) find gushing, self-flagellating, possibly insincere, and worshipping compliments annoying and also they make the person seem less attractive cuz it seems like they've alrdy set themselves down a notch... but the solution isn't to go the other extreme, w/ a "if some is good, more is better" thing where "therefore we should insult her!" -_- As Figleaf says, treat her like a peer. Like for me, ppl on OKC who gush and tell me they don't deserve me, don't get a response, ppl who insult me don't either xD (or I toy w/ them and then post it on my blog xD ) but ppl who ask me about what comics I like, or ask me what I think about Gail Simone's latest issue, or what I think of the DC reboot, or tell me what they think about Hong Kong 1941, or etc :) Those aren't just the ones who get a response, they also tend to get dates (if our convos lead to more interest) :)

Figleaf also adds another thing about this, which is that if you find out you and a woman have v little in common, or you disagree on stuff, it's much easier on your own confidence and ego if it doesn't work out, rather than if you focus on tactics that have nothing to do w/ her as person... (like gushing over her looks, or trying weird "game" stuff) :]

LOL. Why am I not surprised that almost all advice from women in this thread starts with “don't”?

Got anything to add binky boy?

If ya got a problem with the advice speak up or shut up.

OK, dude. You are obviously new to these discussions about feminist dating advice. So, binky boy is going to explain it to you. One main criticism of the dating advice feminist give is that they strongly focus on what-not-to-do. I spotted the same pattern in this thread and reacted with a snarky comment.

Psychological, it's probably more useful to phrase the advice positively. But to do this you actually have to know what you like and that's certainly harder than to know what you don't like. Just to make it clear before I get accused of sexism, I don't think this is specific to women.

So, I do understand why the female commenters here emphasize on what-not-to-do but it would be more helpful to give advice on what-to-do.

In terms of advice this link might be helpful:

http://clarissethorn.com/blog/2011/03/23/ethical-pick-up-artistry/#comment-61426

Except we did talk about what to do xD (treat her as a peer, be nice to ppl, etc etc )

as for nething more specific about what we want the guy "to do", that's different for each woman and also the guy xD

This should help:

DO fix your own attitudes. Seriously, let me be honest here, people like to be treated like people, as opposed to being treated like rewards for one's pick-up skills. Don't fake it to get a date, I'm saying people will like you a helluva lot more if you actually fix yourself and don't act as though the world owes you.

Ami Angelwings wrote:Except we did talk about what to do xD (treat her as a peer, be nice to ppl, etc etc )

Ok, then. Apparently, I made this all up xD.

Speak to other women, not just hot, single women

Believe me, even if the woman you're interested in doesn't know how to spell 'Statistical Analysis', the human brain is a machine that does that sort of math all the time, and if you only are interested in women that are available and hot, it doesn't take an idiot to realize you're just interested in her because she's a target.

Women you find unattractive or women that aren't available can also usually hold a conversation. You don't limit which male friends you have discussions with based on their sexual availability, so why should you do it with women?

The advantages of this approach are

1) you will be seen as less threatening. Women sometimes put up a shield of disinterest when interacting with people who are clearly only out to get in their pants. If she can relax around you she's more likely to hear or see something she likes in you and develop an interest from there.

2) it lets you have multiple prospects in a stealthier way. If you only interact with women you want to bed, then at any party every woman you chat up knows at a glance that you've just tried hooking up with another woman earlier.

3) Sometimes people break it off. Women you found an interest in but were already in a relationship are much more likely to find a sudden interest in you if you were a genuine friend rather than a creepy Nice Guy who was transparently only talking to her so that you might get with her once she breaks it off. She's also more likely to show an interest than if you were to suddenly talk to her out of the blue only once she got single (I know it's a hard thing to swallow for misogynists, but women aren't dumb).

4) More importantly, it's the ethical/right thing to do.

Thomas wrote:LOL. Why am I not surprised that almost all advice from women in this thread starts with “don't”?

Because if the person is someone who you would want to get to know, then being yourself should be good UNLESS you do one of the things that was described as something you don't want to do.

My advice has nothing to do with how you deal with other women and more to do with how you deal with yourself IF you find yourself having problems talking to people.

Always remember that the person you are talking to has every right to not be attracted to you just as you have every right to be attracted to whomever you want to be attracted to. Do not take a lack of sexual interest as an insult. They have every right to have their taste in what they want in someone with whom they have a romantic interest.

Also remember that there are plenty of people out there who would be interested in you specifically because the tastes that people have are numerous.

The moment I realized this in college, I instantly gained confidence in myself and I was able to find more and more dates because that confidence made me more attractive to members of the opposite sex.

Bottom line, never take rejection as an insult.

lj4adotcomdan wrote:

Thomas wrote:LOL. Why am I not surprised that almost all advice from women in this thread starts with “don't”?

Because if the person is someone who you would want to get to know, then being yourself should be good UNLESS you do one of the things that was described as something you don't want to do.

This. The problem, Thomas, is that there is no magical "what to do to get into a girl's pants". That would be the snake oil PUA's peddle. All we can do is talk about generalities as far as what to do, because acting as yourself is usually the best way to go, and we can't say a whole lot more beyond "be yourself". What we can do is try to counter the ridiculous PUA rhetoric (which we know MRAL has been soaking in), and give advice on how to sidestep the usual problems one faces.

And what Ami was saying, and you apparently misinterpreted, is that there is positive advice in here, just not a lot because again, not much to say beyond "be yourself", and we've got a lot of crap to work against with PUA.

Also whether someone likes you or not as a person is generally is pretty much a lost cause, unless you are trying to change yourself actively. As in, I could give advice for picking up ME in the form of positives, but it would be incredibly specific and it wouldn't work on anyone else! You can only be yourself, and hope you hit it off.

darksidecat wrote:Sometimes, I think some of these guys see sex and dating as more of an accomplishment for social approval rather than something they actually want for itself. It is okay to be a virgin. It is okay to be celibate. Sex and dating should happen because it is something you want and are ready for, not because you feel like you have to in order to be a proper man. You don't have to want sex or relationships at any given time. This should be about what you want in your life, not about impressing your friends/peers.

This was me once - hell, who'm I kidding, I still feel this way somewhat - so I feel I must qualify the above. It's not necessarily about impressing friends or peers. It can also be about impressing yourself.

The sad fact is that the co-morbidity of psychological disorders among involuntarily celibate males is sky high. With rare exceptions, they are not perfectly nice guys who just can't catch a break, but men with deep and usually lifelong problems. It's not a group you want to be associated with - or even associate yourself with.

@Laura exactly... I can tell a guy what to do...to get ME to like them... but a) that'd be irrelevant for every other woman and b) it'd even be irrelevant for that guy unless he either fit that, or was willing to pretend a lot and read up on sport stats and etc JUST to date me xD

Ultimately, there's a common thread running through what everybody's saying: dating is not about trying to "win" another person, or manipulate them, or etc, it's about finding the right person One woman who doesn't like you doesn't mean ALL women won't like you... nor does it mean you have to figure out what to do "right" in order to "win" her... b/c maybe you can't, and maybe it wouldn't even be a good fit if you did manage to go on more than a few dates...

Well, dating with the intent of finding a relationship is about finding a person who is a good match for you.

Dating with the intent of finding sexual pleasure is a whole different ballgame. Two people might not be a good relationship match at all but they may be able to enjoy each other.

But you do not have to be a PUA to find that either and if you both are honest and know what each other wants, then it can be much more enjoyable in the long run without the end being a mess.