Ongoing issues here at Manboobz/Leaving

I have decided to leave manboobz, both the forum and the main site, permanently. I feel that cis hetero voices and interpretations, especially cis hetero men’s voices and interpretations, are prioritized over all others by many people here. Not rocking the boat is thrown as an expectation against “angry” queer and trans people who criticize cis people or heteros. Cis people and heteros are treated as insider who need to be protected and coddled, but queer and trans people who complain are hung out to dry. This notion that “insiders” here should not be criticized is in and of itself is an issue. Refusing to stay silent and keep things internal is penalized.

I’m sick and fucking tired of the tone-policing bullshit. And I’m sick and tired of “allies” being allowed to engage in oppressive behavior and being supported and defended over those who they have wronged. There are people here who prefer “allies” who “aren’t too homophobic” over “angry, loud” queer and trans people.

I can’t speak in too much details here, because a lot of these issues and discussions happened in confidential spaces and I will not breach that confidence. That is why I am only speaking in generalities here.

It’s not everyone here, and some of you are wonderful, but it is too many and too many with positions of status for me to feel comfortable, safe, or interested in staying here. At this point, I don’t see value in contributing here anymore.

For those of you who have not been party to these discussions, or who haven’t been part of the problem, it’s okay if you want to contact me in other places (though, again, I’ll only discuss in specifics things that did not happen in confidential spaces unless it’s with a person who also had access). My google email that I use for google talk is darksidecatt@gmail.com. My twitter is here twitter.com/thedarksidecat and my tumblr is darksidecat.tumblr.com.

Now the tone policing cis hetero fuckwads and their sycophants won't have to put up with my angry queer ass. Have a fucking ball.

To the rest of you, good luck with everything and feel free to contact me elsewhere.

Edit: not sure how long this will stay up, so I'm posting a copy to my tumblr.

Hugs if you want them DSC
Not gonna lie, I'm a cis, privileged, ignoramus when it comes to these issues (only knowing the very basics) so I didn't get involved lest I put my foot in my mouth. I'm sorry you're leaving, I always enjoy reading your posts but obviously you know what is best for you. Will miss you though.

I'm leaving too. This isn't a spur of the moment decision. I've been thinking of leaving for a while, since the HeatherN issue actually, but this just feels like the right time for me.

I don't do well in community settings in general because if I have an issue with somebody or feel uncomfortable with somebody, I still feel obligated to treat them as a friend or be around them because other people I care about and my friends do, and I never know how these community relationships work. Social stuff makes no sense to me as it is, and communities seriously stress me out.

Also, being mod of the secret room means that I constantly have to deal with interpersonal conflicts and issues where I may have multiple friends involved. I care about everyone here (even people I may have issues with) and that makes it really hard. I only ever want to help make the community better and happier, and keep everybody happy and friendly and safe. But I also have things I personally believe strongly in.

I've made a conscious effort from the beginning to not speak too strongly about things, or to get into an argument, or rodeo cat anybody here, because I know it comes off differently as a mod, and as a friend, and as somebody that people may view as being connected to everybody. And that's hard for me sometimes because I want to help a friend out in an argument, or I want to express something that's really hurting me, or that I think is important, but I don't because I know if I speak strongly, some people will back off and not feel free to speak, because of my position as mod, b/c I'm trusted with so many things, b/c people might be afraid of what happens if they alienate me.

So that has been on my mind for a while in leaving. I also have felt less connected to the community in general for a while, and my issues with various things have led me to start drifting a bit. First from MBZ Prime and now here. It just is too much for me to handle, and I don't like conflict with people I care about, and if it comes down to that, and I know that if a conflict arose, if I fought, I could only live with myself if I fought 100% for what I believe in, I prefer to avoid that altogether. In that way, I'm taking myself out of this. I don't think I'm the right mod for the secret room any more, and I don't think this community is a good fit for me. You can look at that however you want, whether it's just "oh, Ami's just stressed, we understand" or more than that. If you want to look at this as an act of protest, you can too.

However you take it, understand this isn't personal. It involves my personal feelings and beliefs, obviously, but no personal feelings of negativity to any of you. :) You are still people I care deeply about, and I think I tried my hardest to balance everything, from what I believe, to the people here I care about, and the people that they have issues with that I care about.

But I don't think I can do this anymore. And I hope none of you will hold that personally against me either, but I understand if some do, because by posting here I can't lie that I'm taking a side. And I do think the community has an issue that it doesn't want to admit. You can believe what you want about exactly what that means.

I hope my leaving helps to free up the air for people who feel as if they were intimidated to speak because they didn't want to get into an argument with me, and makes it easier for those who felt bullied or stifled. As I said, I know that some people might have felt my connections, friendships and modship might mean that being on the wrong side of me might be dangerous, and I worried about that constantly, and I don't want that to be an issue anymore.

That's also why I'm leaving entirely. Even if I stepped down as mod of the secret room, I would still feel really invested in any conflict going on, and at this point, as deep as I am in this community, it wouldn't free me to express myself, or any anger or frustration I feel, either because I'd still worry that people would feel bullied or intimidated by my presence in a thread, or that people might feel the "side" I'm on can't be opposed. I would still feel as if I had to balance everything.

And ultimately, I don't feel this is a good environment for me to be in anymore.

Or to make it an Yogi-ism: I'm leaving because I can't stay.

Anybody who wants to stay in touch with me can continue to do so if you follow me on Twitter, or Facebook, or anything else, and obv I have Eschergirls.

If you don't have my IM or any contact info and want to stay in touch with me, you can reach me at eschergirls@gmail.com and I'll give out my more private info from there. :)

I still do care a lot about a lot of you, and I hope none of you doubt this. But I can't continue on here as a member or as a mod.

Due to my core value it saddens me to say that I am going to go into read-only mode as of now as a gesture of solidarity. I still find the mission of this blog useful (the humor keeps me going) but I can't in good conscience continue contributing to this community.

This is awful to read, as I've been a manboobz lurker for so long and I've read so many posts from you guys, that I'm genuinely sad to see you go! I feel bad this has happened, although I admit I don't know what's going on.

I wish you three all the best, and I sincerely hope I bump into you guys on some other forum in the future!

Well I think I might turn in my badge too, it's been a long long run but I think I want to move on. I appreciate everything I gained from coming here: the friends and really cool people I met. I also learned so much and gained a lot of confidence in myself as a person and in my writing. I don't regret coming here at all.

No site is perfect I understand but the problems here have been on my mind and I can't really ignore them. I would not say that's a primary reason for me leaving though. I have been slowly not contributing over time, a lot has been happening in my real life and I have had just less time to comment and read here. So instead of vanishing without saying anything I will make an official goodbye here. I care about a lot of you and I really want to wish you the best in life. I won't say I will never be back because who knows but for now I wish you all goodbye and goodluck in life.

You can contact me at any time at jumboficsh@gmail.com or jumboficsh on skype.

Really I love you all but it's time to move on for me.

We're losing so many incredible people. I wish you all well wherever you go.

I wish I hadn't allowed other people to say what I thought, while I stayed silent and away from the conflict and the criticism.

Darksidecat, I’m sorry it had to end like this. You were one of the very first feminist commenters on Man Boobz, back in the days when most of the commenters were angry MRAs, and I appreciated your comments enormously. I’ve always been impressed with your immense knowledge on an astounding array of topics, and with your epic takedowns of trolls.

I could hardly disagree more with your characterization of recent controversies here on Man Boobz, but obviously it’s impossible to really discuss that here, because most of those controversies happened in confidential spaces. If there were some way to resolve these differences I would certainly push for that, but it is clear from your comments (here and elsewhere) that we are beyond that.

I wish you the best wherever you decide to go.

Ami and Jumbofish, I am sad too to see you leave as well; you’ve both been such an enormous part of the community that Man Boobz has become, an enormous part of what makes Man Boobz what it is. Thank you both for the time and the energy you have put in not only as contributors to MBz but as mods.

BlacBloc, even though you are not leaving I will miss your comments as well. I do hope that some or all of you reconsider.

I'm leaving too. I can't add much to what DSC and Ami have said, but I've become increasingly uncomfortable with the tone policing around here. I know that I've been posting less and less, anyway, and barely checking in to the main blog anymore. I think it's time to cut the cord, especially now that I'm sure it's become very alienating for others. I truly wish everybody the best.

Many of you already follow me on twitter @zhinxy, and my tumblr is zhinxy.tumblr.com

Yeh I will step out here. It's triggering and upsetting reading this MRA shit in the first place, and everyone being expected to forgive those who jump to the defense of people hurting others isn't something I wanna be involved with. I can't imagine anyone is interested in my contact details, but I use basically the same handle on twitter.

I also want to say I'm really sorry for not speaking out or helping.

I'm really sorry to see so many good people leaving. I don't even understand the issues of what's happening, because it seems to be on an advanced level of discussion and I'm closer to level 101. But I want the people leaving to know how much I appreciate reading their comments and learning from them. I'm sorry if I've hurt any of your all's feelings to make you go.

I am also sorry to see so many awesome people leaving...and wish everyone well. It sucks how people can't just listen and not tone police:(

I am really really sad that everyone is going. It makes me hurt a lot to see the best and smartest members of the community leaving, especially the people like DSC and Ami and zhinxy who have a great repository of knowledge about feminism and history and activism and all those things. I don't want to make this about my feelings or anything, but it is a big loss to see you guys go, and I hope that you can reconsider maybe coming back later if things clean up around here.

I am going to stick around for now even though I have many of the same concerns as people leaving. I hope we can fix some of the things that have gone wrong in the community and make a commitment to acting better in the future.

I think everyone who wants to stick around should think really hard about what people who are leaving have said & also consider that pretty much everyone who has left is queer/LGBT and what that means about the atmosphere here.

I don't even understand the issues of what's happening, because it seems to be on an advanced level of discussion and I'm closer to level 101.

I think a lot of us have been talking past each other about this due to differences in levels of education. The issues that seem to have been bugging people are what I like to call "second-order". First-order sexism, racism, etc. is easy to spot because it's direct (i.e. "you faggot", "women are hypergamous sluts") and the intent is obvious. Second-order stuff like mansplaining, tone/concern arguments, bad ally behavior, dog-whistles, etc. is harder to spot if you're not a member of a marginalized group (even people directly affected might just feel ooky and not know why unless they've been educated about this). It still has the function of being ultra-toxic to a community though and alienating people.

I feel like shit now for mostly unrelated reasons, and I also need to think about stuff, but later today I'll gather some education resources together and post them, so people can educate themselves and we can all think about what to do together.

Wow. I obviously missed some heavy-duty shit while I was gone. I have no idea what happened or anything, but I am sorry that it did and that folks are leaving.

:\ Well, if it's an ongoing problem and we start hanging around more often, I expect I'll find out sooner or later...

I have nothing to say other than that reading this thread has made me very, very sad. Good luck to everyone.

I would like to say that I will miss all the people who are leaving and that I have the highest respect and fondness for all of you.

http://www.endlessvideo.com/watch?v=zDWU2SR27g4&start=0m2s&end=0m4s

Aside from possible fangirling over Shaenon, anyway. Same reasons as the rest. Contact info is mostly in the sidebar. Gmail is Ruteekatreya@gmail.com. I have a neglected facebook that shouldn't be anyone's first try, but it's http://www.facebook.com/Caller.Rutee

I'm sorry to see y'all go, but I understand why you need to. I hope you'll come back, though. All of your voices made the blog what it is and you'll be missed.

I'm sorry to see you all go too, and sad, and at the same time I respect your decisions. Hope we meet up again.

I'm going too. I've been pretty much inactive for a while, but this just cements it. I am another one who is extremely sick of the drama and Allies (TM).

...wow.

I have been pretty inactive besides a few things, but what has been happening recently has been pretty heavy.

I don't even know what to say.

I'm going. At least for a good while.

I've realized that I've developed some really unhealthy emotional investments in this place. At the point when I still can't disentangle myself from feelings of "BUT WE SHOULD ALL JUST HUG AND BE FRIENDS," when I'm putting those feelings above people's actual needs and concerns, I need to step the hell back. I'm deeply sorry to people I've hurt or ignored with "shh, let's just forgive and forget and all be buddies" thinking, which is just not compatible with a social justice space.

I think going to a social justice discussion forum and saying "I can't handle conflict and anger" is a little bit like going to a dog show and saying "I'm terrified of dogs, take them all away"--it can be a legitimate emotional need, but I'm in the wrong place to ask everyone else to cater to it. I realize that was a fuckup on my part and I apologize for it.

(And going to a social justice forum and saying "I can't handle conflict and anger... but I'm fine with subtle pressure and nasty sniping" is a little bit like going to a dog show and pretty much just being a jerk.)



I also won't be coming around MBZ Prime for a while, because I don't think it's good for my mental health to daily be rubbing my nose in "look at these people who hate you and everyone you love." There's good reasons to face down hate, but reading fringe-nasty stuff every day and not doing anything to really fight it--well, it is not making me a happier or more compassionate person.

(I think exposure to MRA stuff also may have been, subconsciously, putting me in the "ordinary racism doesn't matter because what about the KKK?" mindset for various forms of prejudice, and that's also a bad thing.)



I've had good times here and met a ton of absolutely wonderful people, if I liked you before all this please rest assured I still like you now, and any Manboobzer is welcome to contact me at any of my other Internet homes. I'm Pervocracy on Blogspot, Tumblr, Twitter, and Gmail.

Yeah, I'm stepping down.

If people want to keep in touch with me, my e-mail is monopoly.on.morals@gmail.com

I use Twitter a lot, so my twitter is @red_locker

I'm going to leave now.

Absolutely regardless of where everyone stands on the issues that have been raised here, I care about you guys. I get it, of course, if that's not mutual. I care about this community, too. It's been an incredible source of support for me when I felt totally hopeless. I've made a lot of friendships here, and I'm really grateful for that. But I can't properly honour the people I love or the values I hold if I stay.

The other reason I'm leaving is that originally I had hoped I might be able to ride out the strife as this community changed to fill the gaps left by so many great people, and to better suit the needs of those left behind (even though my own feelings were closer to those who were going). I've been waiting for the group hug portion of the program. However, I don't think things are going to be resolved anytime soon, and given my mental health is fragile at the best of times I can't spend any more time sad and worried about what's going to be said here next. Which is not at all to say that you should stop discussing it; just that I can't be here to participate.

I'm kind of terrible at the internet >.> but I think I've figured out this g-chat thing, so if anybody wants to contact me at viscaria.flower(at)gmail.com, I'd really love it if you did.

Sorry, this was super wordy. I wish you guys all the best.

Sorry to see you guys go; I do hope we can move past the strife and towards something more like the "hug and be friends" scenario sometime soon, but alas as you all know that's not something that can just be hoped or willed into being.

A few more thoughts, and an announcement:

I think this last week has been grueling for a lot of us. I have been alternately sad, angry, frustrated, and (on occasion) hopeful. I am sad to see so many go, but in the case of a number of those who have left, it’s pretty clear (to put it gingerly) that they and Man Boobz are just not compatible any more.

In order to work through some of these issues as a community, we need to discuss these things as a community -- without those who've (at least ostensibly) left this community either kibitzing or looking over our shoulders. As a result -- here's the announcement -- I'm restricting private forum access to those who are still part of this community.